Martech Stacked Episode 23: The Digital Market Intelligence Platform That Has No Real Competitors - with Oren Greenberg
29th October 2020
I’m joined today by a non-executive director & advisor with 17 years of hands-on experience in digital marketing. He’s been featured in The Telegraph, Econsultancy, and Social Media Examiner - and is the Founder of Kurve, a London-based modular growth marketing consultancy agency serving FTSE 250s and scale-ups. Welcome to Martech Stacked, Oren Greenberg.
Click here to access the Martech Landscape Project that Oren mentions during the episode.
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#3: Autopilot HQ Capture new leads from your website, app or blog and then nurture them with personalized messages. Automate repetitive tasks like educating new subscribers, assigning leads, booking appointments and following up sales leads.
David Bain: I'm joined today by a non-executive director and advisor with 17 years of hands-on experience in digital marketing. He's been featured in the Telegraph, E-Consultancy, and Social Media Examiner, and is founder of Kurve, a London-based modular growth marketing consultancy agency serving 250s and scale-ups. Welcome to Martech Stacked, Oren Greenberg.
Oren Greenberg: Pleasure, David, thanks for having me.
David Bain: Thanks for coming on. Great to have you on here. Of course, you can find Oren over at Kurve.co.uk, and that's Kurve with a capital K. Oren, explain what Kurve does and how you use marketing technology to make it better.
Oren Greenberg: Sure. We're primarily a performance marketing company just by DNA so we're always thinking about how to run experiments, how to make everything measurable, very data led with our approach. And we work with two types of clients.
Oren Greenberg: So some of them are very large notable clients like Lenovo, Canon, Investec bank, HomeServe, et cetera. And then the other half we work with VC-backed businesses on scale ups so most of them are non-exec and advisor for a few different businesses. So I kind of get parachuted in to orchestrate and help out on the strategy, make sure that we're cracking growth. I'm very focused on inbound and outbound holistic approach to driving growth. I help with interviewing candidates, building growth teams, building growth engines, implementing the MarTech stack attribution and media buying for your marketing paid search, kind of a holistic full funnel. So yeah, I'm just playing around with them maybe to have a kind of chief growth officer type of positioning to sort of define over holistic view of marketing.
David Bain: Okay. So you're involved in a whole lot of things. I'm sure you've got experience with, and you're using many different types of marketing technologies. So let's get a flavor of the top piece of marketing technology you're actually using at the moment. Going straight for the top three. So starting off, number three, what are your top three tools in your current MarTech stack and why?
Oren Greenberg: Sure, so I use over 15 different tools at the moment. So I'm quite prolific with my usage. I'm very keen on them. To select my top three I'll probably pick SimilarWeb, Autopilot HQ, and I think my third would probably be Ahrefss.
David Bain: Okay. So three marketing technologies that I'm certainly aware of and that are very important for many businesses. So let's find out the order that are in, in other words, let's find out, which is number one, which is number two, number three. So starting off with number three, which tool would you actually pick as number three?
Oren Greenberg: I guess I'd probably pick, I guess Autopilot HQ would be my third.
David Bain: Third. Okay. So Autopilot HQ, great marketing automation tool focusing, I guess, primarily on email, but also incorporating other forms of communication as well. How would you describe Autopilot HQ?
Oren Greenberg: It's a visual workflow for managing omni-channel comms mostly geared towards a B2B audience.
David Bain: And omni-channel comms. So is email the most important thing, or are you finding, are you discovering that other forms of communication are starting to be just as important or nearly as important for you?
Oren Greenberg: Yeah, I'd say email is definitely the core of the feature set, and I think it's all driven, but you can connect the text messages and you can do all this stuff. That's pretty cool with that. So I don't think it's explicit. I think email is still the main usage I think is now growing beyond just that.
David Bain: I love to use Autopilot because it's such an incredibly intuitive visual tool and you can drag and drop things around the screen, they look lovely and you can actually have fun using it. And so I'm the type of marketer that doesn't necessarily just want to select a technology based upon what it does, but how it is to use it. Why did you actually select Autopilot instead of any of the perhaps even hundreds of other marketing automation type tools that you could have selected already? Why not something like ActiveCampaign instead?
Oren Greenberg: Yeah. So if I guess, gave ActiveCampaign as an example of actually illustrates my point as a whole is my perception of ActiveCampaign is it's much more B2C centric and much more larger volume, and I'm actually more interested in the quantitative journey for individual needs, because I think in B2B it's longer sales cycles, more touch points, and you want to go deeper into less people as companies. And I like the centricity that autopilot has, I like the workflow. And I think it's because it's got lead scoring, which is a very important main function, which a lot of the others you kind of, you mess around with. And so that's my preference. I think an integrated tool, if you can afford it. A whole suite marketing tool like a HubSpot or something is great. I just think you pay a premium.
Oren Greenberg: I think the problem I have is I really like specialist tools and I rather integrate specialist tools rather than go for a marketing automation solution that does some things very well, but does most things on average. So a great example is Ahrefss which is a really deep SEO tool and HubSpot SEO tool. Isn't even the 50th of the functionality that Ahrefss offers. So I think HubSpot is a great all-round for small and medium sized businesses. I think just when you're really deep into marketing, you've been doing it for a long time, I really love having that additional power and going a lot deeper. And therefore I prefer my specialist tools. So that's I guess the two contrasts to why I see marketing automation on one end. And why I veered away from that, even though we use HubSpot, but just the CRM, not the marketing suite. And then on the other half, I veered away from the other email marketing tools because its B2B centric. I think Autopilot is affordable, flexible, and it has a lot of cool integrations, which I value.
David Bain: So what integrations are most important for you?
Oren Greenberg: Yeah, so like a HubSpot integration is pretty cool the way they integrate to Zapier and have a native integration to the Salesforce, which we implement in autopilot for a few different clients. And it's very important to have some sort of something that integrates really nicely between, the email marketing and then the Salesforce when we're not using Pardot, which is very robust, very powerful tool, a bit old school for me. I don't really like the UX or the UI and the experience of Pardot. So I'd rather avoid that. And so we ended up sometimes just using Autopilot and integrating into Salesforce with this part of automation component.
David Bain: And can you give us a little flavor on the most important aspects of the journey that you've introduced to Autopilot? Obviously you can have an almost limitless number of steps/stages within the sequence that you create in Autopilot. So what have you created that has had an exceptionally positive impact on someone becoming a client or a customer?
Oren Greenberg: Sure. I think the reason I like it is how it scans the forms automatically on submission, and then pulls that information in. And then the way we can just orchestrate the channel from a lead magnet that's been downloaded and how that adds to the lead score and how the download and engage with other pieces of content on those specific pages of specific pieces of content that they download. And then you kind of get a nice, good image of who's engaged. And then that really feeds into the sales team and they know to put more energy into those prospects. So I just think it's like the reporting is nice and simple and clean is easy to use. And I mean, it's not the most powerful tool out there, but I think unless you're doing significant volume, you don't need to pay a premium for very expensive and powerful tools. And I think a lot of businesses I've come into, they overspend on the MarTech stack and the team is not upskilled or using them effectively. So I think sometimes simpler is better because at least you're going to be doing something with it.
David Bain: Okay. So you mentioned a few other tools there. You talked about SimilarWeb, Ahrefss, we talked about Hotjar prior to starting the conversation as well. So which tool actually makes it as number two in your MarTech stack?
Oren Greenberg: Ahrefss would probably be my second choice.
David Bain: Right. Okay. And Ahrefss is a tool that I'm aware of. I haven't used it extensively. I've probably used SEMrush a little bit more, or even SEOMonitor or another SEO type platform. What about Ahrefss made you select it over its competition?
Oren Greenberg: I think the volume of features relative to price ratio is probably quite good. And I think it's just the usability and the depth of expertise that goes into it. I think that they are genuine SEO experts and they're very passionate around SEO, just at that community building activity and the quality of the content they produce. And I think they have brought into the ethos and them as a business. But I think I've also brought into... them as just a fantastic tool. It was interesting because there was this research recently and I think it was in... I don't know if it was Search Engine Land, or one of the search blogs, the popular ones and a competitor, a lot of the tools. And they found that actually Moz had better reach in terms of estimating and understanding the keyword ranking.
Oren Greenberg: So the keyword ranking component, Moz was superior, but then I think Ahrefs had a different feature set. So I think it's more important to someone. What is a specific feature that you need for your SEO? What is your focus here for the small, like understanding keyword ranking, or is it understanding backlinks? But yeah, for me, I just like that it has like the content explorer as part of it, I like the bulk upload tools. It's very effective for getting a snapshot. I think it's just very feature rich, it's got a lot of very cool functionality that I tend to use to understand the competitors and actually profiles.
David Bain: So, I mean, you mentioned Moz there as well. Moz was a very popular tool, certainly. I haven't heard so many people talk about it over the last couple of years or so. What type of business would you say is better off purchasing a subscription to Moz and what type of business is more appropriate to sign up for Ahrefs.
Oren Greenberg: I think you sign up to Moz if you're less sensitive to aesthetic, because I don't think it's as well designed as a UX or visually, but it's effectively more suited for smaller businesses who don't need as much power. And I think Ahrefs is not an enterprise level tool. Like Raven tools or some of the others, it's not like Ahrefs is the most powerful tool. I think it's the most powerful tool for the majority of use cases. If you're not going into price level of SEO. And I think Ahrefs just gives you more value for money because it's more feature rich from my experience. I haven't used Moz for a while though. It's been four, five years since I used that. So I don't know. I can't say equivocally right now, yeah Moz is the superior tech, I don't know. But right now I think it's better to... Let's say Moz was better.
Oren Greenberg: Let's say Ahrefs was 80% of Moz. It doesn't matter, what matters is I have a tool I've got a good workflow with, I know how to use and I'm going to use, because I know how to use it rather than trying to find the best tool. I see businesses doing this software hopping, rather than just being comfortable enough that the 80%, but you know that the amount of energy and time wasted in developing new habits is very expensive. It's a steep learning curve. And I think if you can get into a good habit and a good cadence with using a tool, you don't need to keep swapping to just get an extra 10% improvement because the truth is, if you actually looked at how often people are using these tools, very few people are logging in to these tools every day, it's just like ad hoc usage or using it on a need basis. So I think there's a lot of obsession around the tools, but in reality, it's more about who's utilizing them, which is more important than what they're trying to.
David Bain: Great advice. So to take the time to make sure hopefully it's the right tool that you're going to be using to begin with, but once you're embracing it, once you've trained yourself and your team on it, then try and stick with it because it could take a lot of hardship potentially to move to something else. So let's move on to your next selection. We've had choice number three, choice number two. What is your choice number one?
Oren Greenberg: Yeah, I'd say SimilarWeb was choice number one, the reason that's the number one choice is I think it's quite unique in the value it offers and all the other tools, like I said, with the Ahrefs or Moz example, you can swap out and you have to get 80 or 90 percent, with similar functionality and feature set, but with SimilarWeb, you don't have an alternative that's like a 10% difference, especially I think the way that they gather the data or whatever black box they have for doing it, seems to be incredibly robust. I just did this massive project where I took the MarTech landscape 7,198 websites and enriched it with three years of traffic data from SimilarWeb, which is a huge project that has taken me a lot of time and a lot of effort. And I've worked hard, specially with them.
Oren Greenberg: And I'm quite impressed with the depth and quality of the data that they have. I think it is less accurate with smaller websites. So I think if websites are getting less than five to 10,000 uniques a month, probably not the right tool, but I think if you started to get about 50K a month, in just visits. Then I think the tool starts to have a lot more merit to usage. I do think it's good for comparisons, but no for absolute numbers. So if you want to understand trends over time and you kind of dig a bit deeper.
Oren Greenberg: But the main feature I think is unique and probably answered most value is it shows you the keywords that people type in. So Google Analytics doesn't do that anymore because of HTTPS and Google Webmaster Tools (Search Console) from my experience is a bit mixed in terms of the accuracy, but SimilarWeb feels, when I'm looking at it through the data, it's more representative of the keywords people are actually typing in. And that is very valuable insight that is required for SEO purposes, but also understanding the prospect and the mindset, and what they're looking for and thinking about what content to produce and what people to go after in terms of their pain points. So it's more than just SEO.
David Bain: I certainly like the look and feel of SimilarWeb. I've used it a bit in the past. What would you say are some of the key use case scenarios for SimilarWeb? You touched on SEO, but you also mentioned that it was more broader than that you could use it for strategy. Is it important maybe when deciding on marketing strategy to do competitor analysis with, is it a case of looking at your own historical data, your own domains data? What are the more important use case scenarios?
Oren Greenberg: Yeah, I'd say there's two. The main one is understanding your whole view of market and how different websites are competing. In terms of total traffic, and then you can see how are trending compared to competitors. So you have a benchmarking and competitive insight, I'd say that's the first. And then the second is understanding which channels are driving the traffic to competitors. Is it display? Is it email? Is it PPC? Is it SEO? So it does a channel mix. So by understanding the channel mix, if a competitor over time is investing more in a specific channel, then that's likely to mean that they're getting a good return and that uncovers for you and opportunity to research and explore what they're doing. But you know, it has a great feature which shows you the display ads.
Oren Greenberg: For instance, you can see what ads the competitors have and you can learn how to position your brand separately or to differentiate yourself because you can see what all your competitors are saying. So you want to be saying something different. So many businesses they sound the same, or look the same, because they're trying to mimic their competitors and you need to do the opposite. You need to differentiate yourself because a buyer needs you to stand out to select you. So in my mind, having that whole of market view as a CMO or chief growth officer is very critical. So those are the two main use cases for me and how I utilize it from a marketing point of view.
David Bain: And what type of business should be definitely signing up and using SimilarWeb?
Oren Greenberg: I think any business that has enough traffic and is interested in digital marketing and just growth, is in a competitive set. So if it's a unique feature or unique product that doesn't have lifelike competitors, then you have no value in comparing yourself to others. So it's not good for you, but if you are in a competitive set and you got at least four or five competitors and you want to see how you're doing over time, you want to drive insight to see how you can improve then it's suitable. So I'd say you have to have some level of maturity, for me to be 25 50 employees as a minimum. And you probably need to have a decent marketing budget spend of say probably minimum 10, 15K a month, as a lower end.
Oren Greenberg: And I think you need to have an appetite for rigor and data as a cultural component. You want to make data led decisions. I know, even though that sounds obvious and you're like, doesn't everyone? and the answer is no, some people don't. So they'd rather continue doing things in the way that they know how to do things that they don't really want to change the way that they operate. And then obviously you can hear I'm not the most keen on that as an approach. It's not how I operate, I like to make decisions based on evidence. I'm an evidence led marketeer.
Oren Greenberg: So I think that's probably the best fit in terms of my opinion. I think the SimilarWeb team probably have a better idea because they sell it and they know who their best customers are. I work in bigger businesses, for sure. I think it's more built and focused towards enterprise, but it's quite an expensive piece of kit. But I think it is quite unique in its insight.
David Bain: Well, let's veer back to talking about your own business and ask you as your business grows. What's an example of a process that you currently do manually that you may wish to automate using marketing technology in the future?
Oren Greenberg: I'm actually really deep into a process building at the moment using ClickUp which is a project management system. And I'm actually now more interested or curious about how to integrate the marketing automation components into the project management. And I think that's where it's interesting. So for example I'm trying to get HubSpot, which is like a key piece of our marketing tech stack. And it is really a great CRM, just not as powerful as Salesforce and I don't need that powerful for my businesses. It's okay. But some of my clients I wouldn't recommend that they go and use Salesforce because it's overkill for them, and then trying to integrate HubSpot into ClickUp so I can get leads and prospects and make sure I'm following up. I said I'm going to follow up, make sure I'm delivering invoice, that I'm going to be delivering on my teammates, so that's a key integration that we're just working on at the moment. So I'm actually pretty deep into that. That's probably why I've answered your question in that way.
David Bain: I've had a few recommendations of ClickUp actually. It's certainly a tool that has come on my radar fairly recently, but it's something that I'm trying as well. I originally used Trello quite a bit, but it's a replacement for Trello as well. And that it can give you that kind of card look and feel. Did you consider other tools before you selected ClickUp?
Oren Greenberg: Yeah, I've probably use about six or seven different product management tools over the years. I was using Asana before and I liked Asana, but I saw ClickUp as their contender. So I saw it as a sign in market share. ClickUp was offering very similar function. I think catching up very quickly by a more affordable price. And then I just felt like, you know what, actually, I really like the shape of this business. And I've felt that as Asana goes more enterprise and I'm not quite there yet. I wanted to go to something that's more usable, but ClickUp is incredibly robust. It's surprising. It's a bit slower, a bit sluggish, but overall it's a fantastic project management tool. And I like a lot of its integrations into email and into all my different marketing tools as well.
Oren Greenberg: So it's a pretty cool piece of kit. Trello is not a like for like comparison. Trello is a lightweight alternative from my experience. I haven't used Trello in about four or five years as well. So I wouldn't necessarily suggest that people who are listening to this, they take that as gospel, go check it out. If you do like for like comparison and find what's better for you. And if you're really into Kanban, then Trello is great. I think for ClickUp Kanban is just one of the views, it has like seven or eight different views. So it's pretty robust, I was pretty impressed. It's also replaced Notion for me. So I was using Notion, which I really enjoyed and now actually has a lot of similar functionality to Notion. So we've actually started integrating all of it into one place rather than disperse our systems.
David Bain: Are you trying to reduce the numbers of marketing technology that you use within Kurve at the moment. I know you said that you like to have the optimum piece of technology for every different function within your business. Did you have a maximum number of tools that you like to use and ideally reduce them?
Oren Greenberg: So delineating cold processes from delivery processes or core process, which is functions that is not project management. We want this list. We don't want to have Google Drive and Dropbox and ClickUp all at once. We just want to have one because you don't want documents everywhere. So centralizing processes and systems between teams, it's important it's in one place, but marketing tech. I want as many tools as possible because each marketing tech tool gives me insight and marketing in a way that I can never get in one centralized tool that no one told us everything. So you have to integrate the stack. So I guess there's two stacks: there's a business stack, the core stack. And then there's the marketing tech stack, off the tech stack. Yeah, the more the merrier. I love playing around. I mean, I've got a lot more tools. We just haven't talked about them.
David Bain: What do you use for your ultimate source of truth in terms of your data? If you have so many tools, is it AutoPilot or something else?
Oren Greenberg: Ultimate source of truth. I guess I don't have one ultimate per se because they have different functions, but it would be Autopilot, HubSpot and Google Analytics would be the three where I get a view of what's going on with the website, what's going on in the sales and client management. And then what's happening in terms of just nurturing leads. So I think those are three and then I can't get the data. I mean, I probably could but, no, I don't think I could have actually. I wouldn't want to try and pull it onto one system. I don't think it's built for that.
Oren Greenberg: I may want to visualize it in a BI tool one day and when I've got enough volume to justify it. But for now the out of box reports work fine and well enough. And I don't spend excess energy or time on over complicating things unless I have to. Nowadays I'm all about as simple as possible. And I tend to veer towards complexity, which is why I really try and simplify because I'm very curious. And I like innovating and trying new things, and there are costs that could be prohibitive to the business.
David Bain: It think that technical marketers naturally veer towards complexity and that's not necessarily and efficient way of getting things done.
Oren Greenberg: Yes. I couldn't say it better that myself.
David Bain: Well, let's ask you what is something that you have in mind that would be a wonderful piece of marketing technology that perhaps doesn't, it doesn't even exist yet, but you would love to see created?
Oren Greenberg: Are we speaking like completely theoretical, like 50 years down the line type of thing?
David Bain: I'm quite happy to ask questions and to have the person who's answering the questions-
Oren Greenberg: Be as creative as possible.
David Bain: Adapt and then give whatever answer you like. Yeah.
Oren Greenberg: I think there's a finite amount of knowledge. Someone was telling me the other day, there's a lot of ways to fail, but there's not that many ways to succeed. When you think about that deeply for a second, it means there must be a formula for getting something right, whatever that is. There's a set of steps that's optimal. I want to think about, it was like a status yesterday on LinkedIn. That was talking about hiring, and what do you need to keep in mind for hiring? And some people saying, motivation, and some people were saying talent, and some people say skill. There are a lot of different takes on how to build the best team. And what I was curious about, imagine if you could just have a tool that uses natural language processing to distill down the key principles, the most common themes that people have in mind across specific topics.
Oren Greenberg: And just give that to you. So you don't have to keep reading over and over again, all of these permutations, because we waste so much time on this repetitive, different variations of the similar core principles. And it'd be nice if you could just go get all of that. Distill it in a really nice, crisp way, that's very sensical, and then sort of just give me the bullet points. That would be my ideal tool. So just simplifies because I'm across so many different topics, so many different areas. You know, we work with HR SaaS, and we work FinTech and we work in B2B and you know, I work in performance marketing and then I work in affiliate marketing, and then I work in customer retention and such different areas of knowledge and niche bubbles, and it's really hard to juggle them. So a tool that could just tell me when I'm missing out on this new and fresh and the principles that are really important and kind of help me just, then process information and change faster would be more effective.
David Bain: It's that distillation of data that I hear from a lot of people, actually, it's some kind of AI driven assistance with what should a marketer focus on? It's all about improving focus and simply answering the question. Am I focusing on the right thing? Because there are so many sources of data nowadays. I think most marketers are struggling with, with prioritizing what has to be done. Do you have any thoughts on how a marketer should go about deciding on what's the most important thing to do?
Oren Greenberg: Yeah, I think it's not about what's happening in the outside world, it's actually an internal commitment to focus on what's going to drive the biggest impact and it's being clear on what that impact is as a quantified KPI. But the fact that it has to be small or specific, it needs to be measurable, it needs to be achievable. Someone needs to be responsible for it. And the timeline needs to be very clear. And if you're working in a small way towards understanding what are the key KPIs that you need to be driving, you might put your activities and then you prioritize them by impact, confidence, and ease. So what's going to do with the most impact, what are you most confident in that's going to deliver that impact? And what's the least costly in order having that impact, then you prioritize that.
Oren Greenberg: So that's a nice methodology, two different systems to think about. Prioritization, but really the prioritization needs to be, this is what I'm going to drive... The problem is, that's all great and dandy and easy to say. The challenge is, things are always changing and it's adapting to constant changes. If you're like, okay, I'm just going to drive Google Ads. Or, I mean, SEO is a better example, right? When you're doing SEO 15 years ago, you could manipulate meta tags. And if you continue to manipulate them, you'll get penalized. So if you weren't on top of the changes, algorithmically, that will have a catastrophic commercial impact. And then the tension is external changes versus your internal KPIs. But I think that you need to be smart about what is that? What is this? If you're doing SEO, you got to keep on top of trends. But then don't try and add any more skills.
Oren Greenberg: Don't go into conversion rate optimization and paid search and paid social and affiliate marketing. And it just doesn't influence the marketing that you don't need to go and develop all these additional skills to actually protect your income or protect your career. You can just keep going deep into SEO. And as long as you're really, really good at that, you'll be fine. You'll have enough income, you'll have job security and you'll have good nurturing business relationships. So I think a lot of that comes from an emotional state of FOMO and fear for security. And that's what drives a lot of people to feel like always on top of stuff. And I think that's normal. I think we all experienced that as well, overwhelmed with too many emails and too many things to read and not enough time. And I think the key is just to focus is most important and how you can become the best specific shaped challenge or problem.
David Bain: Either based upon what we've discussed so far today, or perhaps even bringing in something new. What's one key takeaway you'd like to leave the listener with that they can perhaps think about or implement within their business, maybe from a marketing technology perspective or maybe some other marketing angle.
Oren Greenberg: So I think one of the things that people tell me is they feel overwhelmed with the amount of marketing technology solutions out there. Okay, it's growing, it's proliferating. You look at the marketing technology landscape grew from 150 to 7,000 in six years. What solution do we pick? And the truth is if you look at the number of categories, there's only 49 categories, but in the 49, there's only one or two top solutions in any category like there's usually the best or the best solution. And you don't have to sort through all 228 leads capture options. Like if you just go for Convert Kit, which is like the market leader in that category by traffic and the research I did, then you're fine. You're good enough. You don't need to go and research 15 solutions to find the best to get the incremental improvement.
David Bain: Oren, thank you so much for your time and your tips today. What's the best way for the listener to find out more about you and what you do?
Oren Greenberg: Sure. So we leave notes in the show, show notes?
David Bain: Yes, we can do.
Oren Greenberg: So if we can leave a link of people interested in the MarTech project and signing up for that, that'd be great. And then the best way is probably just connect to me on LinkedIn, quite prolific on LinkedIn.
David Bain: Great. Okay. Well that link will be included in the show notes at contentco.io/blog. Thank you so much again for joining us.
Oren Greenberg: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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