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Martech Stacked Episode 9: What is the most valuable conversation you can have to enhance the impact of your marketing technology? - with Louis Grenier

Blog Post Author – David
David23rd July 2020

I’m joined today by a man who believes that the Internet is the missing link between our Brain and the Universe. He’s Founder and Host of Everyone Hates Marketers and Senior Marketing Strategist at Hotjar - welcome, Louis Grenier.

Subscribe for free to listen to Martech Stacked on Apple or Android.

Here are the 3 top tools in Louis’ current martech stack:

#1: Word of mouth customer research This is absolutely critical according to Louis in order to make your martech stack work effectively

#2: Segment A customer data platform that makes good data accessible for all teams.

#3: Tableau Tableau helps people see and understand their data

Full transcript:

David Bain: I'm joined today by a man who believes that the internet is the missing link between our brain and the universe. He's founder and host of Everyone Hates Marketers and senior marketing strategists at Hotjar. Welcome, Louis Grenier.

Louis Grenier: Bonjour bonjour. Thanks so much and well done for pronouncing my name pretty much the exact same way it should be pronounced.

David Bain: I almost got there. I didn't emphasize the 'R' quite enough. I could've gone, Grenier. Couldn't get that. That would have been maybe a little bit better.

Louis Grenier: Yeah. I'm impressed. Actually,

David Bain: Mais, ma femme est française!

Louis Grenier: So that's how you're cheating. That's how you manage to actually say it properly, because you have the French influence in your life. That's very good to know.

David Bain: Yes, yeah. Indeed, indeed. Louis, great to have you on, you can of course find Louis over at everyonehatesmarketers.com as well as hotjar.com. So Louis, explain what your business does. Now we're talking about Hotjar in the context of today's conversation. So explain what Hotjar does and how you as a business uses marketing technology to make that business better.

Louis Grenier: So Hotjar is a way to understand what people really do on your website. That's as simple as it is. Traditional web analytics tools like Google Analytics, they show you numbers and graphs and reports all day long and they're very good at understanding the big picture of your site A bit like you're the CEO of an airline or the CEO of a train company, and you want to know where people are coming from, leaving, et cetera. It's very good to know, to have a lay of the land, but there's limitation to this. And the limitation is when you want to go beyond the numbers to try to understand what people do and they don't do, what do they pay attention to on your site, on your pages? What are the things that they struggled with, that they don't struggle with? How do they feel about the journey on your website? What could be improved? All of those questions are basically can't be answered via traditional analytics unless you try to guess them. So Hotjar is the bridge, makes you closer to your customer and to users this way.

David Bain: Wonderful. Okay. So I will just dive into the second part of that question, how do you use marketing technology to make the business better, just in a second there, but just one followup question about Hotjar. What is the biggest or the quickest win that an average customer that signs up to use Hotjar actually discovers?

Louis Grenier: That's an excellent question because it can be quite overwhelming when you set up Hotjar, where you have a lot of data in front of you very much the same than Google Analytics. So the biggest, the quickest win I can think about is based on a course I just set up and I just created for Hotjar recently.

Louis Grenier: The best way to find opportunities for improvement that will have a big impact is to one, look at your Google Analytics and understand your most important segment of people, meaning, who are the people bringing the highest revenue to you and your website, by looking at different dimensions like slicing and dicing the data a bit. So are people more valuable when they come from Facebook? Are they spending more or less per user? Are people coming from France more valuable than people coming from the US, et cetera, et cetera. So trying to slice and dice the data to the point where, as a rule of thumb, you have between 20 to 50% of the people in this segment that are worth more than 50% of your revenue. So those good customers. Once you have that, you look at where they land and the typical path they take, through Google Analytics once again, or any other traditional analytics tool, to understand where do they land? Where do they drop? Where do they go?

Louis Grenier: And then once you have those two pieces of data, the last thing is to go to Hotjar and basically segment your data the same way. So you look at the segment of people you set up. So only coming from Facebook, only coming from this country, only using desktop device, stuff like that. And you want to look at recordings of people, so actual recordings of people going through your site, anonymized, by the way, we don't have any way to know your personal identifiable information. We mask them, and they're never saved in our servers.

Louis Grenier: And so you look at recordings of those people, but not all the recordings. You look at recordings of people who went through the buying process, who bought from you, but nearly didn't. And that's the key. And the reason why it's so powerful to think this way is because those people actually bought from you. So their feedback, their experience is valuable, because they showed, they brought money to your business. Now, if you don't, if you're a charity or whatever, you need to think of the biggest, most important goal, but it's the same thing. And look at recordings of people struggling, spending a lot of time on your pages, visiting many pages across like maybe 35 minutes and whatnot.

Louis Grenier: So looking at those recordings particularly, and paying attention to what they pay attention to, and also paying attention to what they don't pay attention to. And this is extremely valuable because most people think about it the other way. They obsess over people who don't do what you want them to do, but by looking at people who did it, but nearly didn't, it actually leads to a lot of insights. So I would say if you have 30 minutes in front of you, and this is the only thing you can do, this is what I would tell you to do.

David Bain: Wonderful. I mean, I've used Hotjar quite a bit in the past and I can certainly recommend it as well as a wonderful platform. However, just like any other tool it's quite challenging, if someone hasn't been in there at all before, to decide on what to do first. I think what you've summarized there will give people some just actionable thing to do straight away and get value from the tool. And that's obviously why people choose to stay with the tool if they see an immediate demonstration of value as well. So, talking about marketing technology in general, or kind of thinking about it, maybe over the last few years with Hotjar, in general, which are the areas that marketing technology has really impacted the efficiency of your overall operation?

Louis Grenier: I think, although we are big business in term of revenue, I think we're going to hit, or we've hit just $20 million in annual recurring revenue, which is massive. And we are a bit more than 120 people. When I joined three years and a half ago, there was a lot of stuff we didn't have put together. I would say the single most impactful thing that martech stuff helped us to do is to actually understand the journey of our users from an analytics perspective, from a number of perspective and the attribution of those users.

Louis Grenier: And we know that attribution as a problem is everywhere from marketing people, they want to measure everything from start to finish. They're very frustrated if they don't know where those people are coming from. And where are all of those direct visitors are coming from and what did they do before? And have they heard of us before and what led them to just visit the sites? Why can't we see more sessions prior to that? I mean, it's been... I know this is a problem that a lot of people suffer from and we have a BI, business intelligence, team that got set up recently and they solved this problem.

Louis Grenier: Not a hundred percent, you can't solve it a hundred percent. You have to make peace that digital marketing is not a perfect, you can't have perfect data, never, but actually it helps us to understand the journey of customers from start to finish from the first session to the last one. What channel did they come from? What landing page they land on, how much are they worth per channel, per campaign, per keyword. And I honestly, I would say, I didn't believe that we will be able to pull it off, hearing so many other people saying they struggle with it, but yet they did it. And now we have a series of Tableau dashboards that answer questions we could never answer before, but that came from creating our own data lake, using segments as the way to connect all the sources together, clean things up, starting fresh as well without polluted data. And we are now at a point where we understand the journey, from a number perspective, at least, much better.

David Bain: So maybe just sticking with attribution for a second, because that's a word that has been around for a while, but I don't think most businesses are really doing too much with attribution. I think most businesses are probably still looking at last click, last referring source before a transaction took place. Can you talk a little bit about the most common wins that a business may be likely to achieve as a result of embracing attribution? Maybe by focusing more on SEO, maybe by focusing more on certain terms within PPC or some other medium. What's something that can be gained or an initial gain that a business can get by really improving their attribution skills?

Louis Grenier: Well, I guess it adds more color to your data and more truth to it by, as you said, instead of just thinking of last touch, I'm thinking of, okay, people landed on the website and bought from us right now. It makes you think more in term of the full journey. So I mean, to be very concrete about it, one of the key thing is, as you mentioned, is what are the channels that are bringing the most users to us?

Louis Grenier: What I like to think about is particularly what is the channel that people see first then end up doing whatever and then end up buying a few months after. And that's kind of the channel that matters the most for a marketer in term of awareness building is because if most people come from these as first touch and then they might go and search for your brand term on Google and then converting, if they didn't have this first stage, they probably would never be there in the first place or end up buying in the first place.

Louis Grenier: So this first touch element, understanding where did they actually, where did they come from, is a powerful thing. But even with a very, very powerful attribution dashboard and attribution tool, you can't know for sure whether this was their first touch. There is still issues with cross device. And there is something wonderful, which is real life, outside of computers, where people actually talk to each other, believe it or not, David.

David Bain: Occasionally.

Louis Grenier: They actually talk to each other, sometimes, and people may talk about Hotjar to their friends and thank God we can't track that conversation, but I might tell you, you need to check out Hotjar or you might listen to it on a podcast and then just Google it. Even though you see that as first touch, it's not the first touch. So going beyond just this pure attribution number driven thing to understand the full context is important, but first touch is usually a good aha moment.

David Bain: So, does that mean... Just one final question about attribution? Does that mean that you are a fan of actually providing the first touch with more financial value? So it's worth more financially to a business, the first touch, than the other subsequent touches before the transaction is made?

Louis Grenier: I wouldn't say I'm a fan at all. It's just in term of understanding. What I love to think about as a problem is how to make people go from zero to one, meaning how do you go from not knowing you to knowing you. And so this first touch to me is interesting, but beyond that, to speak about Hotjar particularly, we use 40/20/40 as a rule. So 40% of the weight is given to first touch channel, 20% is given to all of the things that happen before last touch, and last touch gets 40%.

David Bain: Right.

Louis Grenier: And we settled on that because it gave us the highest, we felt the most realistic, the most fair measurement. But what's interesting what we learned anyway, even with the 40, 20, 40 rule versus first versus last is that our users tend to convert quite quickly, regardless. I think, I'm not going to say something stupid and I'm going to try to pull it off, and I may correct myself in a few seconds, but I think more than 50% of our users convert within first day.

David Bain: Wow. Okay. So, because of that, I guess you'd also say that 40/20/40 isn't a model that any business should just simply follow and use as a first model before, before they get more data, it's a model that you found that is appropriate to use at Hotjar, but it's possibly not appropriate for other businesses?

Louis Grenier: It depends. It really depends on you. I know that 40/20/40 is something that is being used quite a lot in terms of a model, but you need to know what happens. Like if you're a very, if you're an extremely quick purchase decision, B2C type of company, like where people end up just visit your site, they buy and then leave. Then maybe last touch is important to you because first and last are actually just the same. But if you are huge B2B service company with a sale cycle of three years, maybe last touch doesn't matter almost whatsoever because the game happens before that, so.

David Bain: They've already made the purchase by the time they get there. Yeah.

Louis Grenier: Exactly.

David Bain: Great. Listen, let's dive into your marketing technology recommendations. So starting off with number three, what are your top three tools in your current, in Hotjar's current martech stack and why?

Louis Grenier: So I mentioned two already, so Tableau.

David Bain: Okay.

Louis Grenier: And Segment, in no particular order, because again, I didn't set up the business intelligence team, my colleague, Andrew Michael, you need to talk to him, by the way, he's much more well-versed than I am on this. But Segment gave us this holistic view of everything that was going on from a digital perspective. So we are able to connect everything to it, and it's kind of the single source of truth. So we have a data lake that is like managed by our engineer in BI where this is where the data lies. This is where we trust it. And then Segment is kind of the thing that connects everything to each other and to it. And that helped us to clean all the data we had.

Louis Grenier: We used to have reports from Mixpanel, from Google Analytics, from Hotjar, for whatever, it was a mess. You didn't know what to trust. Now, every single thing is handled through the same. So when we launch experiments, they are being flagged in Segments and therefore in the data lake. So we can come back to it and know exactly what users have been exposed to what experiment when. This tool is a game changer for this reason. And the second one is Tableau, purely because that helps people like me, who have no idea how to do SQL queries and stuff like that, or don't have time, to actually interpret the data and slice and dice the data ourselves. So again, our BI engineers have been working very hard to make that happen. And we have dashboards on a few topics that are extremely valuable for us. So those two tools are incredibly important for us as a business.

David Bain: Okay, I'll see if I can give them equal two and a half rating. But if I was to really push you, Segment and Tableau, and you couldn't separate them in terms of values to the business?

Louis Grenier: Well, Segment has to be more important than Tableau because without Segment you don't have Tableau, so... Or at least not the right data.

David Bain: Okay.

Louis Grenier: But the number one. Can I tell you the number one?

David Bain: You can indeed, and then I'll go back to Segment and Tableau and just dive a little bit deeper into why you chose those tools and how you use them. But let's see what number one is.

Louis Grenier: I want to just go back to something I said earlier on, just to make sure I correct it, and don't say anything stupid. Out of all of the users, visitors, who came to our websites between May to today, 80% of them signed up to Hotjar on the first day.

David Bain: Wow.

Louis Grenier: 7%, 8% within a week. So 88%. David Bain: When you're saying, they signed up, is that a free trial?

Louis Grenier: Yes.

David Bain: Right. Okay.

Louis Grenier: So that's an interesting piece, but if you slice and dice the data further into looking at the important, for example, leads, the leads that are more valuable to us than others. And I'm just going to literally just going to do that now, because I want to tell you how interesting it is and I'm going to get lost in my stuff, hold on one second.

David Bain: No, that's okay. Just while you do that, I'm just going to ask a followup question about Segment, because what you mentioned was an interesting phrase, you said, "Single source of truth." And I think for the listener, if they're not comfortable with that particular phrase, it's really important to have one piece of software, which is your most trusted piece of software in terms of information about your database. And everything else feeds into that, and then out of that tool again, and then everything essentially talks to that piece of tool. We've talked to guests before who use a CRM as a single source of truth. Why do you think Segment is better as a single source of truth since instead of using a CRM?

Louis Grenier: I think a CRM sits on top of it again, right? So CRM enables you to slice and dice the data in a different way, from different view, from the customer perspective and what emails did they receive and who they are, but without Segment really, the engine behind it, then you can't do much with a CRM, right? So I think this is where it is. So I've looked at the dashboards. And so for example, for the leads that are more important to us, 75% instead of 80% convert on the first day. So nothing crazy, right? So, the difference is not that massive. And what we've learned really is that a lot of things happen in the background before they actually even start to visit our website. And this is something we don't, we can't do anything about with digital tools. So it's actually a real life interaction.

David Bain: Has that stat improved significantly over the last few years. I'm wondering if that stat was a lot lower, that percentage of people who signed up in the first day was a lot lower three years ago.

Louis Grenier: We didn't have that data. So I can't tell you, we only started to have this fresh, proper data for the last nine months or so. So I actually wouldn't know whether it improved or not. What I know is when we ask people directly, "How did you hear about us, from the very first time?" The vast majority of people say from a colleague, from a friend, from an agency. So we know that what happens is people hear about us, mostly not from our marketing efforts of writing blog posts and whatever. It's just purely people talking to each other, which is why the first two that I want to say, the most important tool that you have as a marketer at your disposal is to talk to customers yourself, is not to overly obsess over numbers and Google Analytics and Segment and Tableau, as we mentioned.

Louis Grenier: Yes, that's incredibly important, and as your company becomes more sophisticated, but I can't tell you how many times I've just had one conversation with a customer or user where I had huge, big ideas after that, or I felt so energized after that. It adds color to a black and white world. It adds context. It adds empathy. You kind of start visualizing an actual person talking to you using words, rather than those dashboards and reports and slicing and dicing data. And I would say, to me, it will always be the most important tool. And you might say, it's not very sophisticated, and we can talk about how to integrate that with your CRM and whatnot. But to me, this is the single most important thing can do as a marketer.

David Bain: I do love that answer. And I'm a fan of understanding what users are doing. Obviously I've used Hotjar and I'm also a fan of usertesting.com. Not sure if you've heard of that, it's nice to get 10 minute recordings of people actually going through your site and commenting on what they see when going through your site as well, but focus groups or one-on-one conversations is key as well.

Louis Grenier: Not focus groups.

David Bain: Not focus group. Why not focus groups?

Louis Grenier: It's skewing the data, people, people interact with each other and come up with stuff just to please you and to please other and to raise their status in the group they are in. I would advise against it. I would advise to just have one-to-one conversation, or survey that you send to one person. It's very easy for people to get carried across, to get carried away when others are in the room.

David Bain: Have you tried focus groups and come away with that conclusion as a result of trying focus groups?

Louis Grenier: Yes. In the start of my career we did a few. And it's just so obvious. I mean, when you understand principles of marketing, meaning like behavioral psychology and psychology in general, you understand that people are extremely social creature that needs their status, that always check their status against other. And you will have a dominant person in the group that naturally goes up in the status rank during the group. You'll have others that start not saying much, or just agreeing for the sake of agreeing. And so it skews entirely the conversation and it gives you bad data usually. And this is why I don't think this should be something you want to do, especially if you're not used to talking to customers or users to get the right insight.

David Bain: Yeah, I was going to say, do you not think there's a way to mitigate against getting consistent answers by maybe asking better questions or using focus groups in conjunction with one-on-one conversations?

Louis Grenier: Yes. I mean, again, it's not a black and white world. Obviously there might be way to mitigate it, from my small experience, I haven't found a way to mitigate focus groups data, so that it's actually valuable, because of this component of status and stuff like that. I know there is a new solution out there now, but they are not physical focus groups, where they isolate response on purpose so that you have a group of people, but they don't hear each other. Again, I think it goes back to one-to-one, the reason why they do that is they know people are not really truthful when others are in the room.

Louis Grenier: But even then, even when you do one-to-one conversation with people, you need to be extremely careful about the type of question you ask, and don't ask, or else you're going to skew data because we have huge confirmation bias as humans. We are looking for the answer we want. And so for example, quick rule of thumb, asking questions about the future and what they might be doing is no-go, asking questions about what they would like to see as a solution is a no-go. The best, most impactful question you can always ask are about the past, the near past and the present, and ask about their pain points, what they're currently doing now, what they've done in the past, all of that kind of stuff. If you start going into the future, the answers are mostly rubbish. People can't predict the future.

David Bain: Great tips. Let's try and bring it back into data. Obviously you highlighted the number one tool, in inverted commas, is talking to customers, but how do you actually convert that into meaningful data for the business? Do you ask specific questions and store that data and try and establish some kind of trend between different customers?

Louis Grenier: So this is something that we are evolving within Hotjar, and it's something that we used to do on a very ad hoc basis. So for example, I run a couple of, I mean, maybe 25 interviews last year to develop our new positioning, and how do we stand out in the market. What do people think of us? How would you describe us? Stuff like that. And it always has been kind of ad hoc. So our project managers would run interviews themselves with their own questions depending on their goal. So we never really had a consistent way to talk to people.

Louis Grenier: Recently, we started an exercise within the marketing team where we have an email campaign in Intercom that automatically sends a Calendly link to folks who fit the criteria we want to talk to. So, good leads. And we send them a Calendly link with a random round robin distribution, meaning just it basically gives the spot to one of the people in marketing to speak to them. And so they book a time with us and we just have a rotation where everyone in the marketing team talks to customers, I would say every three, four weeks.

Louis Grenier: So that's a great for empathy building. But to go back to your question, this is something we are building on. We are actually hiring a researcher, a product researcher to consolidate everything into one place and to make it searchable. So we've actually looked at a few solution. I know there's one called EnjoyHQ, if I'm not mistaken...

David Bain: Don't know.

Louis Grenier: Which is basically a way to turn qualitative data from survey, interviews, anything into quantitative data that can be slice and dice by themes, by whatever you want. Whoever, whatever information you input, you can slice and dice the data. So for interviews in particular, the most important step is to transcribe this interview, right? So we do that every time.

Louis Grenier: We have a hub, recorded to hub in confluence where we store knowledge documents internally, where we basically store them in a table, these are all the interviews we've done, but there's way more we can do to create a quantitative version of this information. But to me, to be honest, even though it's great that we are going towards that, I was never really anxious of having it, because to me, what matters almost more is just that people talk to customers.

David Bain: Yeah.

Louis Grenier: Because the value is not necessarily in the knowledge they get and that you share. It's just the empathy that you create, but just talking to people and just have genuine conversation. But yeah, we are getting better at this, but we are far from being as good as we could be.

David Bain: And just one final question about the other two tools that you mentioned, there were Segment and Tableau, why did Hotjar actually choose to go with those tools? I mean, for instance, why not Google Data Studio instead of Tableau? Why not something else instead of Segment?

Louis Grenier: I wish I could tell you. To be honest, I think, for Tableau, I don't, I don't know. I think it was a compromise between intuitiveness and simplicity of use for non-techies. As well as the power behind it, making sure that it is something that is useful for engineers. They can do whatever they want with it.

Louis Grenier: For Segment, I think it was a bit an easier choice, surely, because I don't, you might find something, but I don't think there is a tool in that category that does the job as well as they do. And I think they are pretty much the sole market leader by long, long mile. I think they were first to market, if I'm not mistaken.

David Bain: I think that's why I said Segment or something else. Nothing else sprung to mind-

Louis Grenier: Yeah.

David Bain: ... yeah, for me as well.

Louis Grenier: Yeah. I don't think, honestly, I think they were first to market. They think they created their own category and their reputation kind of precedes them. And for that reason, I think we went for that without really questioning it. But again, I didn't make the choice myself. My colleague, Andrew, in particular would be able to better answer that. But I think this is what happened.

David Bain: Okay. So we've really talked about data-centric tools, so they don't really power your content marketing strategy, but can you give us a flavor of your actual content marketing strategy? You touched upon blog posts and how it's actually maybe difficult to measure the direct impact of blog posts in the customer journey. So how do you decide what content to publish and where, what would be the most valuable content to publish?

Louis Grenier: Right, how many hours do you have in front of you?

David Bain: How about two minutes.

Louis Grenier: No, but seriously, there's something I've set up with my colleague Theo a few years ago when I joined Hotjar, was in charge of sitting in with the content team and the content processes. So the way we split it now is in two. One is kind of the bottom of the funnel. I hate this term, by the way, but there's no better thing. So anyway, lead-generating content versus awareness-led content. Let's put it this way.

David Bain: Sure.

Louis Grenier: So lead generating content is, we look at what most content team do. They look at what's the volume, how many people search for that? They look at difficulty. How difficult is it going to be to rank for it? And then they look at potential impact. How likely are we going to be to generate any queries from it.

Louis Grenier: So when you look at the perspective of keywords that are directly related to the use of Hotjar, which will be that the lead generated, the lead-driven kind of content bottom of the funnel, it's actually quite easy to set up. We have pretty much covered the entire, all of the keywords and themes that we can write about for that particular objective. So anything on heat maps, session recordings, if you'd like tools, anything related to Hotjar. Hotjar pricing, Hotjar whatever. Direct competitors, all of that is covered. And those generate the bulk of our signups.

Louis Grenier: And then the other side is kind of the middle of the funnel, top of the funnel, which you could call awareness-led content or whatever. And that's the world is your oyster, there are so many keywords. So then what we used there was what are the things that relate to Hotjar, but not directly. So I don't know, websites analysis, theme, digital transformation. I'll tell you something about analytics which is interesting, all of that. And then going beyond, like remote work, user centricity, all of that.

Louis Grenier: But we rank them in the same way. Is there volume? Is there, how difficult is it going to be to rank? And for those, instead of looking at, are they going to generate MQLs or leads? We look more in term of, do we have a story that stands out against the competition? Do we have a point of view that we could run, that would actually completely go against what the top 10 results talk about? And I can give you a few examples or if we don't have time, we can move on.

David Bain: I think it'd be good to maybe get one example. One follow up question that may relate to, I guess, an example, is I was going to ask you, well, how do you decide whether to publish video content, written content or audio content, or some other style, some other format of content?

Louis Grenier: Yeah. So we have a very, very small team. I mean, we are literally the content team in Hotjar are two people. So Theo our senior editor, and then we have Tony who is our content writer, that's it. Right. So when it comes to what format to write about, it's pretty much related to the strengths that we have in the team, both Theo and Tony are incredibly skillful writers. So it makes sense to start with written format first. Blog posts, guides and whatever, but now our strategy is moving on to, okay. We have those guys, those blog posts that we know are working, let's repurpose that into different format. And to be honest at this stage we are not, I can tell you, yeah, we need to do more video or whatever. We look at the channels that we can repurpose and see what seems to work there.

Louis Grenier: For Instagram ads and Facebook ads, for example, it's obvious that video, things that'll move, will make people pay attention. But for other formats, like, I don't know, webinars, live events, presentations work well, and gifs and whatever. So, to be honest, this is something we are experimenting with, purely because we have a small team.

Louis Grenier: And to give you an example of a piece of content that goes against what is being written, we rank well, I think for user personas and personas, and I have a huge issue with personas in general, because they are usually make-up words, make-up profiles that marketers just make up in a boardroom based on nothing but intuition. And we came up with a completely different take on it, to teach people how to create actual user and buyer persona from real data from surveys, interviews, you can see a theme there. And I don't remember the position, but we ranked, I think in the top three position for this. So it's always good to have something that stands out against what all of the massive sites like HubSpot are talking about.

David Bain: It certainly sounds like there are a lot of processes that are exceptionally efficient and well oiled within Hotjar, but as the business grows, what's an example of a process that is perhaps currently done manually within Hotjar that you may wish to automate using marketing technology in the future?

Louis Grenier: I guess I touched on it before, this qualitative research, I think this is where it's going to be at. So I talked about that. So I can talk about something else, which is the experimentation side of things. So every squad, every team have... A way for us to reach our objective is to experiment. Everything can be treated, not everything, but a lot of it can be treated as experimentation. So I think in the future, we have a very manual and widely different way to present results from experiments, to make sense of them. We are going all towards the same definition and the same process, but we are not there yet.

Louis Grenier: So I think one piece of technology that we don't have yet that we might be looking for in the future is a common way to store all of the experiments results, to learn from them, to give access to the team about the learnings, to be able to launch new experiment from there. All in one place. I think that's probably... I mean, we just talked about that literally before our call together. So that's where we're going to be going soon, I would say.

David Bain: What is something that you have in mind that would be a wonderful piece of marketing technology that perhaps doesn't even exist yet? You'd love to see created, maybe as a feature within Hotjar or maybe as a standalone piece of marketing technology?

Louis Grenier: One, which is not a plug to Hotjar would simply be, I say simply air-quoting that, would be a way to automatically make sense of any qualitative answers and turn that into quantitative that people can address and dive into, like surveys, interviews. I know there is some AI tool out there that do some of it, but you need to train it. You need to train the model how to make sense of it. And it's far from being perfect.

Louis Grenier: But I wish there was a way also to upload this information to my team's brain and to anyone's brain so that they would have the same customer knowledge, because it's one thing to learn about quantitative stuff from Tableau and whatever. It's another to have this empathy and this qualitative sense as well.

Louis Grenier: Another one, just briefly about Hotjar in particular, I wish there was, and you mentioned it earlier, I wish there was a way for our session recordings to include feedback and to actually create usability testing, user testing sessions on the fly with people, by asking them, "Hey, you're visiting the site right now. You genuinely want to visit the site. You're not being paid to do user testing. You're not a trained user tester. You're an actual person. Do you want to, can we record your screen while you talk?" I'd love that.

David Bain: Have you been asked for that from customers?

Louis Grenier: I think so. I mean, I think it's difficult for people to voice out specific features they want, but I know that we know from research in the process that people use, we know people use traditional web analytics to make sense of what's going on. They use Hotjar to understand where people really do, but then they'll also use usability testing and user testing to have a more directed way to see like how people interact with the menu or... And so we know that this is part of the workflow and if we could replace this part by integrating within Hotjar, I think we'd be in a very good position.

David Bain: Well, Louis, I think this is a great conversation because just about every single answer you give, I want to dive deeper into it and just not get to the end of the discussion, but I can't be sidetracked by doing that every single time. So thanks so much for coming on. Would you say that there's one key takeaway you'd like to leave the listener with from today's discussion?

Louis Grenier: Yeah. I would say that the word marketing comes from market and then -ing. Marketing is not about you, your company, your product. Marketing is all about your market and your people. And it's all about them, from their perspective. And your goal is just to reach, to match their needs with what you can offer, but it's not the other way around. So it's something that I'm trying not to forget, ever. And I know it sounds a bit simplistic, but when you think about it, so many decisions are taken from the perspective of us, and us, and we need this, and let's take that out from our customer's perspective. Let's think of the market first. So marketing, that's what it stands for.

David Bain: Great thoughts. Thank you so much for your time and your tips. What's the best way for the listener to find out more about you and what you do?

Louis Grenier: Well, yeah, hotjar.com for Hotjar. As you mentioned at the start, I run a podcast called Everyone Hates Marketers. I've been running it for three years and a half. I've interviewed people like Mark Ritson, Seth Godin, Neil Patel recently. I mean, a lot of people I admire who are much smarter than me, so you can check it out. You can just Google the name Everyone Hates Marketers. And I want to say, David, thanks so much for doing what you do. I also run a podcast and I know how tough it is to keep track of what people actually say and be genuinely interested. You did an awesome job. So thank you for your time.

David Bain: Well, thank you, much appreciated. And thanks again for your time.

Louis Grenier: You're welcome.


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