Martech Stacked Episode 10: What email marketing software is enjoyable to use, has great features and is good value for money? - Laurie Wang
30th July 2020
I'm joined today by an ex-marketing specialist and content consultant for Google. She is an award winning digital marketing consultant, speaker, and social media trainer who helps businesses to get seen online and attract more customers. Welcome, Laurie Wang.
#1: ConvertKit Email marketing tools and automation you need to grow your blog and business.
#2: InShot Trim video / Remove the middle part / Split video / Merge clips / Adjust speed
#3: Canva Collaborate & create amazing graphic design for free
David Bain: I'm joined today by an ex-marketing specialist and content consultant for Google. She is an award winning digital marketing consultant, speaker, and social media trainer who helps businesses to get seen online and attract more customers. Welcome, Laurie Wang.
Laurie Wang: Thanks for having me, David. It's great to be here.
David Bain: Great to have you on Laurie. So you can find Laurie over at lauriewang.com. So Laurie, explain what your business does and how you use marketing technology to make it better.
Laurie Wang: Of course. Yeah, as you mentioned previously, I worked with Google on rolling out their digital training program across the UK. Before that, I was with an ad agency. So during this time I really saw the evolution of how digital have really evolved over time. This dates myself a little bit, but I still remember the days when I started working with the agency, Facebook was called thefacebook.com, so it's quite a few years back. Really have seen the changes over time of how businesses have leveraged digital and social media platforms to grow their audiences online. That's really why I want to bring that into my business, to help small businesses create that same opportunity, but without the huge budget that's needed in order to enter the agency land. So that's where I can bridge that very unique area where small businesses can then jump in, leverage those technologies straight away, and then turn around and start applying it to what they do and start seeing results a lot faster than they would in a large company.
David Bain: That's amazing. TheFacebook.com. I don't think I was using Facebook at that time. I think I signed up something like 2008. So before that I was on Bebo, which was a really popular network in the UK and obviously Myspace or Friends United before that, if anyone can remember that.
Laurie Wang: That's right, yeah.
David Bain: But TheFacebook.com, but what year was that? Was that when it was only appropriate for students to actually sign up and use the service?
Laurie Wang: That's right. Yeah, so you can hear my accent. I wasn't originally from the UK. So I graduated in the US and during that time they were recruiting lots of college students to be part of the platform. So we were one of the first essential testers in a way, to use it. I started seeing it from the very early days, one of the very basic, essentially just a few buttons here and there to post on your wall, and you can post a few photos about you, some information. A bit like LinkedIn back in the very first early stages. So yeah, seeing Facebook essentially evolve over the last, gosh about 16 years or so, isn't it? Since they've been around, it feels like ages ago,
David Bain: Yeah, did it feel at the time that it was ground breaking technology and, and different to other social platforms out there, or did you just feel that it was a slight improvement or maybe not even an improvement, just a different type of platform?
Laurie Wang: Yeah, at first we just thought it was actually just a profile, an online profile you can create for yourself and then you can connect with other students that way. So it really didn't feel very groundbreaking until they start rolling out, of course, a lot more new features. I remember even then for the first, I would say a couple years or so, it wasn't particularly innovative in that sense. It was more just for fun, or I used to remember the days where you can send gifts, virtual gifts to each other. It's just one of the things that you do as college students back in the day, but obviously when we joined the agency side, from my perspective, it really opened up a whole new world about what social media can do, at least in the very rudimentary stages for business campaigns, and because of that, that's why I thought it was really interesting to continue that journey. Eventually lead me, that to Google essentially, ultimately leading me to create my own agency.
David Bain: Superb. So we're obviously focusing in on marketing technology as part of this conversation. So in general, which parts of your own business would you say are actually operating most fluidly, most efficiently at the moment, thanks to technology?
Laurie Wang: Yeah, definitely. So I would say in terms of scheduling of social media as itself, that's one thing that ever since these tools came out initially, it's been a huge life changer just because it's one of those things that become a time suck if you're not careful about that, and if you don't have things planned ahead of time having a process in place, it can really take over your day.
Laurie Wang: That's one part of it, but another part of it is actually the content creation side. I think before some of these amazing new tools, which I'll mention later on in our Q&A is really, you have to go into these very complex softwares to create high quality content. Whereas nowadays, having access to just a few websites and a few tools essentially allow you to create content within minutes and allow you to share that with your audiences. In social media land content and social media itself, it's almost like the car and the engine. So without one and the other, you can't really function. So by having these amazing tools that save businesses loads of time, and essentially being able to still operate while they get on with what they do best.
David Bain: Okay, so I'd like to take a detour straight away toward conversation, but I won't. I'll go straight into the three technology tools, but I just want to say that I would like to get your thoughts afterwards on organic versus paid as well for social media, because I think five years ago, you could get tremendous organic reach on social media. It would be great maybe to get a few thoughts from you, whether you think it's essential nowadays, to do things like boosting posts to get your content seen out there, but let's veer back to marketing technology. So I'm keen to find out your top three tools. So starting off with number three, what are your top three tools and your current martech stack and why?
Laurie Wang: Fantastic. Well like I mentioned earlier, content is a big part of what I do, but also a big part of what my clients do as well. So for them, this might seem... Maybe some of you guys were listening, rudimentary, but it's actually been something that's been revolutionary. We've seen that done fantastically well across the board for content marketing. So it's canva.com. Now the reason why Canva is so good is because back in the days before Canva started, I remember being frustrated about using Photoshop or using Adobe Premiere, or some of these very fancy and expensive tools, but at the same time, having those functionalities in there that looks very scary for a novice. So for someone who doesn't come from a creative background, being able to leverage just a few clicks on websites like Canva, where you can essentially create graphics, videos, cover images, and all kinds of different social media graphics and content within minutes, it has been revolutionary. Actually that's one of the reasons why I think the founder mentioned she started in the first place. I thought I mentioned that as one of my top one of the three, because it's been one that truly changed my content life in a way, and also for all my clients, to be able to do it themselves very quickly as well.
David Bain: Obviously for lots of other people as well, because I've recently had a conversation with Teresa Heath-Wareing, I'm not sure if you're aware of Teresa, she's a social media expert. She selected Canva as one of her tools as well. So it's obviously a tool that's particularly popular for those who focus in on social media and want to create compelling, great looking content. So great recommendation there for number three. So what is tool number two?
Laurie Wang: Fantastic, so in continuing with that, a great one for mobile which I love, is that because nowadays a lot of times when you're posting on the go for different, let's say accounts that you might have, or perhaps to share something straight away, given the time limit and the time attention span that we do have these days. A great video tool to use on a mobile to create content is called InShot. So I-N-S-H-O-T, for those of you guys who are listening. So InShot's great because it's essentially like Canva, but almost on steroids for video. You can create different filters, you can create different segments, different sizes, very quickly.
Laurie Wang: We know that's important now because every single platform have their specific sizing requirements for video content and if you don't have anything at hand that can do this very quickly, it can be very time consuming. So for you to be able to quickly switch around, let's say a YouTube video into an IGTV video, and then going ahead and post that into Twitter and LinkedIn all very quickly, just because you can transition the videos into different sizes. I think that itself is a game changer, but on top of that, being able to edit your video on the go on the mobile, it creates a lot of time for people and also a flexibility as well.
David Bain: Okay, another great recommendation there. I'm not sure if I've heard of InShot before, and you can tell that Laurie's a pro because you spelled out InShot as well. So extra stars there for that one. What platforms is InShot available on? Is it available on iOS? Do you know if it's available on Android as well? Is it available on desktop as well?
Laurie Wang: It should be available for both iOS and Android, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with that one. Do let me know after the show, but from what I know it should be available for both of those mobile platforms. I don't think they have a desktop platform for that, but the only reason is because their key selling point is because of how they can do it on mobile. If you're looking to do it on desktop, then I would say the best bet for that would be Animoto. Animoto is great because they have a lot of these different set, I would say, formats of how your videos should look. Essentially we need to do, just slot in the videos that you have. Then you can then create different type of cuts and also presentations from it, which is really great as well. So if you're a keen desktop user, feel free to check out Animoto.
David Bain: Another sneaky recommendation there that probably doesn't fit into the top three, but maybe came close.
Laurie Wang: Came close.
David Bain: That's great to get that one there as well. Just to break down InShot it was, wasn't it? Not plural, it's just InShot.
Laurie Wang: That's right.
David Bain: Yeah, just to break down-
Laurie Wang: Just InShot.
David Bain: ... the workflow that you use within that. So you would go to a YouTube video that you've published yourself that may be over 10 minutes long, and then you're able to select a segment of that video fairly easily? Then from that you're able to create a one by one video for Instagram?
Laurie Wang: That's right. One by one, or let's say you want to do the vertical version, a full screen for IGTV for example, where you only use it for TikTok maybe. Of course, TikTok have their own little video editors these days as well, but a fantastic trick by the way, is to use some of that TikTok special effects if you want to, and then you can bring it back into InShot. Again, a little side tip there, but so using that you can quickly shift the size of the video very quickly. Also, you can add in subtitles, you can add in filters, which makes the whole process so easy, especially when you're just on one of these devices rather than having to be on your desktop.
David Bain: So Instagram was the first platform you mentioned there, and then TikTok. I assume you're obviously on TikTok. I haven't checked it, if you're on TikTok or not. So I guess for the first part of the question is, what's TikTok like for you if you're on it? The second part is, I guess, what are the key social networks to be posting on at the moment, in order?
Laurie Wang: Great questions for both. So unfortunately with TikTok I'm a bit of a late bloomer. So currently you can see that I have an account on hold at the moment, but I don't really have an active posting content on there just because I'm trying to figure out the platform in terms of how it really fit in within my brand.
Laurie Wang: That comes to the second question actually, because at the end of the day, I think social media platforms are fantastic and there's always going to be new ones out there. Now, the key thing is to think about, is your audience, sorry... is your audience actually hanging out in that platform or are they actually being at the place where you're currently at the moment and you should concentrate your effort and your content being where you're at to really serve them best? So in my mind, obviously thinking about the demographic at TikTok, I don't think it really merits me spending additional time there at the moment. However, I am obviously keeping the monitor very closely on the situation and I feel like it starts to get to the point where it has been more mainstream and my audience base is starting to move towards there, I will eventually spend more time on that platform. So that's my point on the second question is that, you want to think about where your audience are at at the moment, not just where the most coolest or latest platform is.
David Bain: Great, okay. So you're not dancing on TikTok yet, but maybe in a month's time or so?
Laurie Wang: Exactly.
David Bain: So, that was tools three and two. What is your tool number one?
Laurie Wang: Okay, tool number one again, this comes back to my digital marketing/social media background. But one thing that I use consistently on a weekly basis is email marketing. Now, the reason why I mentioned this on the back of social media is because at the end of the day, social media is actually a borrowed platform. As much as I don't like to admit that being a marketer on those platforms, it is true that in some way that they can actually take away social media at any point. So we've seen that with some of the video platforms, which I shall not mention on this podcast, but if you know what I mean, where previously it just shut down overnight. A lot of the creators/businesses that actually used those platforms lost out on the opportunity. So if you can, I will always recommend, try to attract your audiences on social media to leave their email addresses with you by exchanging for let's say, a valuable piece of content that you can create for them that's behind the barrier wall to sign up for via their email address.
Laurie Wang: Well, the reason why I say that is because ultimately, if anything does change with the algorithm, the reach of that platform, or let's say the platform does shut down. Very unlikely, but it might happen. Then you actually own this particular audience a lot more than let's say, by just being on there at the mercy of the social media platform reach. So let's say tomorrow I want to send an email newsletter to my audiences, I will always have that list of audiences there who are waiting to hear from me. Now, they have the choice to actually unsubscribe if they want to, but ultimately the people who are on that list are the ones who choose to become my true fans and remain there because I create more value for them in that channel.
David Bain: Okay, so do you have a specific email software tool that you would recommend?
Laurie Wang: Yes, so I've tested quite a few of them and of all the ones I've tested I really liked ConvertKit. Now, there's a reason for that because one is for the audience base that you have, you get lot better value for money. In terms of, let's say you're going up to 7,000 or 3,000 subscribers. On a per subscriber cost basis, you're paying a lot less with ConvertKit, in my experience. Secondly is that they have a lot of interesting tagging opportunities that you can tag the users based on their user experience with your website, with your newsletters. So if they clicked on something for example, and they're actually criteria, they're actually classified as a really interested party in a specific product, that itself is a really great feature. Or particularly, there is a email broadcasting service that you can schedule out beforehand, which is quite common across all email platforms.
Laurie Wang: However, the one that I really like is the one where you can create the if and then functions within ConvertKit as well. Again, creating the whole ecosystem of your email newsletter list. So without having to do too much manual process, again I'm all about automating as much as you can obviously, without taking out the human touch, but in this case for email marketing, it's quite easy to set up in ConvertKit and I really recommend them.
David Bain: Great, okay. That's a good recommendation. I've been fairly, I know, hot and cold with email marketing over the years. I've been good at opting people into a list, but I've been rather unenthusiastic about emailing people on a regular basis and keeping in touch with people. You mentioned it's important to have a strong call to action as part of your social media content that you publish. So what's an example of a great call to action, maybe a specific piece of content that you can share that that has been really effective at driving people to your email list? Then as a follow up question to that, how often do you keep in touch with people using email and what content did you have within those emails?
Laurie Wang: Sure, of course. So in my example, where I usually think about for my audiences, what their biggest challenge is at the moment, and how do I support them better. Usually, the very valuable piece of content that you are willing to give away for free should be something that you're actually willing to charge for. It should be that valuable where you're thinking oh, this PDF or this guide, or this ebook that I'm creating is so good that I want to actually sell it for a specific, obviously marking budget, but actually you're looking to use it for free to actually get people in exchange for the email addresses. So, that should be how valuable that piece of content are to your audiences.
Laurie Wang: So in my case, I actually created list of, I think it's 20, the top 50 I think, technology tools that I've used in my online business, that's been really valuable for me. It's something that I would have actually created into an ebook if I could have, but because this piece of content I think is so valuable for people, I'm actually using it as a lead magnet to really attract audiences who wants to be part of my community in exchange for the email addresses to get this piece of guide. I've gotten really great feedback about that as well. So I got lots of people emailing back after they received the email from me from ConvertKit saying, "Oh, Laurie, love this guide and I hope that you create more things like this for us." So it's just like in the the feedback that I'm using from my community to really feed my content ideas, especially when it comes to a piece of content like this for email exchange.
David Bain: In terms of email frequency and content within the emails?
Laurie Wang: Yeah so email frequency, I recommend going for a frequency that works for you specifically. Let's say you have a lot of content that you want to share, but it might be only over a course of let's say, four weeks. I recommend actually splitting that up into something that's consistent for you. So even let's say once a month, if your audience know that they can expect an email from you once a month every time, then they know that you will always be there for them in that aspect, in that consistency. Now, if you can be there for them on a weekly basis, just email out something that's really useful perhaps you came across or you think they might find useful in what they do. Then I think that itself is a great value add. It's not too frequent to the point that people actually get annoyed. I think once a week is fantastic, if you can maintain that.
David Bain: Great, okay. I touched upon at the beginning of the discussion, paid or organic social. It would be great to get your thoughts on how you put together your own content marketing strategy. So what content you choose to publish and where you choose to publish it and how you choose to promote that. So what kind of content do you try to publish on a regular basis, and how do you break that down into the various platforms?
Laurie Wang: Fantastic, yes. So what I do at the moment is that I try to publish a YouTube video on a biweekly basis. That's my Keystone content. Then what I do is with that larger video that I produced, which is usually about 10 minutes plus long, I can then break that down into specific small bite piece contents I can use to promote the video across my various different platforms. So it was actually a mini content strategy across social media that way. The reason why I say that is because every single person should have a key medium of platform that they choose. You might be a really great writer, then write a blog post every week or every two weeks. Maybe you're a great podcaster like yourself, right David? So do a podcast maybe every two weeks or every week, and then that should be your key medium of your content base of your key... What do you call it? Key channel, in a way. Then from there, you can use that keystone piece of content to create lots of mini content behind that that's relevant to each platform.
Laurie Wang: So for example, if I were to share a podcast episode through Instagram, I wouldn't just post the graphic on Instagram. I will actually create a short audio file, plus the video overlay of that audio playing, which I'm sure you've seen some of those formats across social media. Those are actually a lot more engaging for individuals to click on because Instagram is actually a visual platform. So same thing let's say over on Twitter, where maybe an audio file link, it won't work as well as let's say a video playing the actual audio file. But again, Twitter have their own specific sizing and timing requirements as well. So being able to create those different forms of content, you're creating multiple different stages for your keystone content to draw those audiences in from multiple different platforms as well.
David Bain: So thanks for the podcasting compliments, the cheque's in the post for that one there, but-
Laurie Wang: Oh, no worries.
David Bain: ... your comments on YouTube, you said take a segment of a YouTube video and then use that to publish on Instagram. Do you try and drive people back from Instagram to your YouTube channel and you have your YouTube channel is your core channel?
Laurie Wang: That's a great question. So the way I see the online channels is actually that everything is becoming an ecosystem. So even though YouTube might at the moment be the key channel where I'm driving people back to, at the same time I'm also cognizant of the other channels that I have and how it can make them a multi-search type experience. So let's say someone come across me on LinkedIn. Then actually, they'll also see that I've actually featured one of my key YouTube videos on LinkedIn as a link. So, that would drive them towards my YouTube. Then on YouTube, I also have a drive towards my website because on my website, there's actually a really valuable piece of content that they can download. So they'll click through to my website, download that content, and then they'll receive an email from me, which then creates more links into my Instagram, for example, and Twitter and Facebook. So all of these become almost like a ecosystem across different platforms. I want people to be able to find me anywhere they're hanging out online, but obviously at the moment I do have the capacity to do so.
Laurie Wang: I always recommend to new individuals coming to the social media space to pick about two to three platforms maximum to actually really concentrate on those. Then once you start growing the audience that's a sizable number, you can always bring them into other platforms as well, like using this online ecosystem method.
David Bain: So would it be fair to describe your system as a funnel across different social media platforms? So users may discover you on LinkedIn or Instagram, and then get funneled towards YouTube and then get funneled back towards your website and a call to action after that?
Laurie Wang: Definitely, that's a great way to put it David.
David Bain: Okay, great. We touched upon paid or organic. Do you pay to promote posts on LinkedIn or Instagram?
Laurie Wang: Absolutely. So currently I still believe the cost per impression and per click, especially from what you can get on social media ads. The most valuable places are still Facebook as the main place and then Instagram obviously, because they are converged together. You can actually run Instagram ads through Facebook's ad platform as well.
Laurie Wang: I always recommend going through Facebook's ad platform as a first place. The only reason for that is because Instagram has a mobile ad platform on their mobile app. However, it's not exactly very accurate. You can target general interest areas, general demographics, but it's not as detailed as Facebook ad platform where you can literally go into the granulars of how your audience look like on a day to day basis, and if you know your audience very, very well, you can go into lots of detail about who they are, what their interests are, what competitors are they're interested in, things like that, where you can target in a much more granular level. But also, what's great about Facebook is that retargeting option where those individuals who came across your website, your social media accounts previously, you can capture all of that into a custom audience and then be able to retarget them later on because they're much more familiar about you and then much more likely to become a lead or become a customer, than online. Something that's worked really well for my clients in the past as well.
David Bain: You mentioned retargeting quite a bit there. So if you're advertising on Facebook or Instagram, would you advocate just boosting posts with a view to building a retargeting list, or is it important to have a call to action alongside that paid post as well?
Laurie Wang: Yeah, great question, David. Definitely call to action to that. The reason for it, because when you boost posts, it only gives you a specific impression that Facebook is trying to reach for. If you're not very clear on who you're actually boosting it to Facebook will use that budget very, very quickly and then boost the post to as many individuals as they can without actually going to your target audiences. So the key thing I think to avoid that boost button, if you can on Facebook pages, but rather go behind the scenes into the Facebook ad platform and do a specific targeting from there. Make sure in your copy, there is a value add call to action there that drives people towards doing something, maybe even just to click on the website, but I would say go step further to create some sort of value add content piece that they can download, and then measure how many people downloaded on the back of that to see what your conversion rate is like.
David Bain: So as your business grows, what's an example of a process that you currently do manually that you may wish to automate using marketing technology in the future?
Laurie Wang: Yes, that's a great question. So one thing that I really hate doing in the moment is the subtitles. Now unfortunately, subtitles are still very much manual in many senses. Now I know there are a lot of websites out there doing subtitles, including rev.com for example, where they actually have a human being behind the scenes writing it out for you, and then sending it back to you in about two to three hours, let's say. Now, because I have a very much of a eagle eye of accuracy, I still spot the really glaring typos that happens in back of human error. So annoyingly enough, I still have to do it myself sometimes, checking it through over and over again just to make sure I don't end up speaking, let's say a really bad word by accident in my subtitles, even though that's not why I said in the video. So things like that, where I do find a little bit annoying and things like that, that I feel like should be automated by this point by using artificial intelligence, for example. But I'm hoping that someone out there is currently creating this amazing tool and then we can use that in the future.
David Bain: Yeah, we're using Rev for this podcast to publish in ContentCal and I've used Rev quite a bit over the years and I would generally describe the results that they produce as 99% accurate, and if you just use the machine only, probably down to 90% to 95% or so. That 99% is very, very good. They do actually manage to pick up most things like brand names, but every so often, as you say, there's a phrase that's not quite right and if you're doing something to publish and it has to portray a professional image of your brand, then you do need to go through what Rev produced. I'm not slating Rev, Rev are probably one of the best, if not the best options that are out there, but they're not quite perfect yet.
Laurie Wang: Yes, that's right. I agree. So hopefully we do get to that point where we do have something quite accurate and essentially just something that you can submit, get back the file, and start using it straight away. So I'm hoping for that in the future. We'll see.
David Bain: Well, we'll get there. We'll get there.
Laurie Wang: Yeah, exactly.
David Bain: What's something that you have in mind that would be a wonderful piece of marketing technology that perhaps doesn't even exist yet, and you would love to see created?
Laurie Wang: Now, I really hope that you prove me wrong and this technology does exist, but the one thing I've been looking around forever is something that allows you to search through videos, where as you know, some of these videos out there, content are so long. You might have someone doing an interview for let's say an hour or two hours of a session, or it could be a podcast audio, things like that, where I hope that there's a platform out there. You can actually search through that video, in terms of what was talked about and be able to jump to that particular content piece in that particular time slot, timestamp, straight away. Therefore, save many hours of agonizing and trying to find those specific areas that you're looking for in this specific interview.
Laurie Wang: Or, this might even come in the back of virtual summits, for example, so I myself as part of many. When you want to go watch some of the other interviews that other speakers have done, you have to go scroll through hours of video to find them. So, things like that would be really amazing, in terms of not from a content marketing perspective, but just from a user experience perspective as well.
David Bain: Yeah, I completely agree with you there. I think the technology is in development, Google especially, want to try and offer that particular service with YouTube. They're obviously trying to make sense of audio and video and producing automated captions that are fairly decent, but not completely perfect yet. Also, you may have noticed when you search Google for certain keyword phrases, that YouTube videos sometimes appear at the top of search engine result pages. Then sometimes those YouTube videos actually start at a specific point in the video, that's because Google have detected that the answer that someone is looking for starts at that particular point. So, I think they're starting to try and do it, but they're a long way off from actually delivering exactly what you're looking for.
Laurie Wang: Exactly, but I'm hoping that does change as well, obviously as we have better search results in coming through for video formats, but looking forward to that.
David Bain: Absolutely, but you know, we've covered a lot in today's conversation. What would you say is the key takeaway that the listener needs to take away and maybe implement within their business?
Laurie Wang: Yeah, so from what we talk about today, David, I think the key takeaway is one, maintain your consistency over your content and your social media. Now, that might be different for everyone. It could be on a regular basis, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis, or daily if you're really ambitious. Now, but the key thing is that you want to make sure your audience know that you're always there for them on a specific time that they know they can expect to see your content in front of their faces. So I think that itself is quite key from today's conversation.
Laurie Wang: Secondly is, don't be afraid to leverage some of these amazing tools to help you create your content or schedule your content, just to make the whole process easier for you because from what we know about creating an amazing social media presence and online presence is that it does take a lot of time and effort. If you can actually make some of those easier for you, it allows you to concentrate more of your time to do what you do best in your business as well.
David Bain: Be reliable, be consistent, turn up consistently.
Laurie Wang: Exactly.
David Bain: Thank you so much for your time and your tips, Laurie. What's the best way for the listener to find out more about you and what you do?
Laurie Wang: Yeah, they can go to my website at lauriewang.com, or feel free to come over to Twitter and Instagram @iamlauriwang. Of course, once you go to my website, there are lots of useful content there you can sign up for and feel free to find my other platforms like YouTube for example, where you see regular video content coming out to really help you guys grow online.
David Bain: Wonderful stuff, thank you again.
Laurie Wang: Thank you, David.
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